[Icehouse] Icehouse / Treehouse forum?

[David Artman]

Hmmm....

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> wrote:

> It would be discourteous to reply because any appropriate response to
> your posturing would be a personal attack.  The easiest way to do so
> is any one of the more common insults -- which would be distasteful,
> both as it would assault the eyes of the uninvolved and undeserving
> populace and because it would have no chance of producing a positive
> result.


And yet...

You, personally, by your participation in this community, make it a
> far less confortable and pleasant.


The first dig: I am ruining everything for everyone (hyperbole); and
everything is always supposed to be pleasant (molly-coddling).


> You have done it on numerous occasions -- when you try to pressure the
> loonies to support one of your ideas, when you attack someone for
> running a service to the community, every time the idea of augmenting
> or replacing the list is mentioned, and on numerous and uncounted
> other occasions.


You seem to be counting--start a support group, maybe; I seem to have
scarred Teh Intertubez with my diction.


> I appreciate that in nearly all of these situations, you are trying to


Obviously, you don't "appreciate" my effort or myself at all (hypocrisy).


> be helpful, but your results do not measure up to your desires,
> instead, they display the products of a childish and egotistical
> attidude.


Bingo. I am a child, I am an egoist. Have you "won," now?


> You are not helping.


Yeah, and YOU'RE just a ton of utility in a friendly little package, eh?


> Please, stop.  Or at least grow up, and accept that not everyone
> thinks as you do, or is obligated to behave as you desire.  Your mind
> does not model reality, and as it is, you make the community worse by
> your presence.


Bonus points: I am delusional. have you won some extra prize?


> There's no "moving". This is not your grandomother's internet.  There
> is no single community.


Um... yes there is. Players of Looney Labs Games; Rabbits.


> The glory of the modern internet is that anyone can set up anything
> they want to set up.


And the banality of it is that doing so in isolation is so much wasted time
and bandwidth and server storage space.


> If people want to use it, they will.  If it provides a service, it
> does.  And in general?  Many smaller communities with linkages between
> them are far, far more effective and useful than fewer larger
> communities -- this is the Internet; it's a big place, and it's full
> of people.


Thank you for finally making a point with an objective other than angering
me and making yourself look oh-so-mature beside me (uh, wait a sec... why
would you bother, if I am such a childish egoist? Surely, everyone knows
this and needn't be informed by you... but maybe you see them as childish as
well and need your patronizing protection and education...?)

I concur that cross-linked communities are more stable than monocultures.
But I think you're missing a key point: groupware can link to a list
archive; but a list can't link to groupware, except as an echo or as some
extra junk in the footer. Your strawman argument hinges on a false premise
that the two function in parallel manner. They don't (as you should realize,
with your copious knowledge of All Things Internet, spooged below to impress
the on-lookers).


> The only difference between the Icehouse lists (which, btw, are not
> built on "1970s technology" -- They're built on Mailman.  Mailman


I said 1990s, but why quibble with a child?

And, anyway, yes they are built on listserv technology. If Mailman was
released in 2004, then, MAN, did they sucker some folks. It does nothing a
listserv from the 1990s couldn't do. I could make a horse-drawn carriage
today, but that doesn't mean I "innovated" anything, quite the contrary.

And guess what?  The only people who control this are them.  If you


Gee, really? Thanks for pointing out to me what was Point #2 in my roadmap:
moving is irrelevant without the support of the "official" leaders of this
"community."


> want to convince them, talk to, you know, LL.  Not us.  Because you're
> not going to suddenly convince people happy with one tool that they
> want to use another tool (Religous arguments are -so- y1000).


WTF? Dude, you're smoking the good stuff... got some to share?

"Religious arguments?" Are you SERIOUS? OK, now I'll laugh at you:
"Hahahahaha!"

Option A does more than Option B, but also emulates Option B. It's not a
matter of opinion, it's fact (gee, you didn't quote ANY of my arguments
about that--I presume you agree... or, at least, couldn't find a hook on
which to hang your insults).


> ...because I get a lot more functionality via a mailing list than I do
> via a web forum.


Given that a web forum or groupware can be set to behave EXACTLY like a
mailing list, all I can say is that you're full of it--you are, literally,
presenting falsehood as fact, to attempt to persuade (I guess). You're
inventing differences and issues where there are none. LL could move the
lists to a web portal, set everyone to Email Subscription, throw the switch
in the middle of the night, and 90% of folks wouldn't even know it had
changed. And then, great, go layer on the awesome functionality you need...
because it behaves the same way as a listserv once its hits your email
client Inbox.

I would think someone who can rattle off Internet acronyms and initialisms
like a salesman would know that.


> Might I add another forum if it existed?  Maybe; transaction cost is a
> bit part of my time.


Begging the question yet AGAIN.

Every web forum or groupware I have seen is able to be set to behave like a
list. Every. Single. One. You are just lying. And your agenda for lying is
to either (a) let folks splinter off into isolated bands, each with their
own preferred interface paradigm or (b) deny community members the right to
decide collectively what their community interface will be, or (c) to Win
Friends And Influence People.

I am only arguing with you because I want folks to be properly informed,
understand that the proposed move is not as "earth-shattering" as you would
panic folks into believing, and maintain our small community's cohesiveness
against an already far-flung Internet presence (ten independent lists, two
wikis, individual sites, BGG, etc, etc, etc).

Yet I'm the Egotistical Child and you're the Good Father. As I said
before... whatever. I am sure we'll get another fun round, as you will
insist upon the last (false) word... maybe if you call me an insect, your
arguments will suddenly flip to being valid and relevant and true? it's
worth a try, right, "Community Buddy" of mine?


> If LL decides they want to shut down their existing community and ask
> people to join a different one, I'll be disgruntled, but probably join
> (hint: they will not do this.  To do so would be community suicide).


More fear-mongering. Sad, really. Still though: I guess it's ever the case
that some folks will come with ideas and improvements, and other will warn
of heresy and falling skies.

You got anything to offer other than the Status Quo, fear of change, and
insults? Are we done, yet?


> If they move their list, I'll happily go along with the move.


Oh, a lemming following the "suiciding" LL, eh? Do you actually HAVE an
opinion, or do you morph it to suit your next volley? You go from
"disgruntled" to "happy" in one sentence, passing through certainty that
it's all doomed, "DOOMED I SAY, SUICIDAL! No one would ever again
participate in the community, if they had to click five links to
re-register! Ma, get the shotgun and kids; we're headin' for the hills
before the commies git us!"

Pu-leeze...

I'd rather be an egoist than schizophrenic.


> But if you keep trying to force things down people's throats it will
> help nobody.  Not even you.


I'm just fending off the flies, now. Unlike some people (*cough*), I know
that mine is but one voice and one vote in a dictatorship that is enforced
by a cult of personality. That's why I no longer conform to the fake-jolly,
always-smiley "tone" of this "community": doing so, apparently, gives the
impression that everyone's totally happy, fine, glad to donate scores of
hours for nothing, content to be ignored. I am no longer "fine" with that
(as you point out in such detail above, enumerating my failings) and, more
so, I feel it's valuable to a REAL community to have dissent and, yes, the
occasional demagogue. The groupware thing has been batted back and forth for
over two years (probably more; it's just that it's been a Null Motion for as
long as I've been here). Like so many of our ideas, it would take almost no
effort on LL's part, but it would require a nod of recognition or even
ratification, to help with initial promotion.

Yes, I have been informed about how agonizing every LL decision is--the
hours invested in each, no matter how trivial or beneficial--I've heard it
right from the source, if you can imagine (Robin). But that doesn't mean
that I now happily sit on my hands and forget about what I think is best for
the majority. It just means that I have to marshal that majority, to prove
to the community leader--LL--that it's desirable.

I was thinking more of this earlier today: High control and agonizing over
detail is AWESOME... for a designer. I am not so sure such traits are the
least bit desirable in a community leader, particularly a community of
passionate fans and volunteers. I am thinking it's better to let the group
lead, delegate trust to those who deserve it, and be responsive most by
being an enabler. Maybe that's no great insight, but it brought into focus
(for me) why I am so routinely flabbergasted by the resistance to change
which seems endemic to Things Looney: I think democratically; and as a
leader, I let those with expertise DO while I try to keep larger goals in
focus (like growth, efficiency, empowerment, and group cohesion). And that's
what stuns me about so many recent dealings of this nature: it strikes me as
weak, even dictatorial, leadership and a waste of talent and resources.

That's a large part of why I no longer consider myself a Rabbit, nor am
active on the IHG wiki, except to protect my own games' pages--I've lost
faith, and now it's Just Business... and business is bad, for Icehouse
products; and I don't yet see any strong effort to improve it (though I've
been promised that there is some in the works! God, I hope it's not another
3HOUSE...); and I see a LOT of effort expended to maintain the bad status
quo; and I can't seem to get one solid refutation to any argument I present
for change--I'm told repeatedly that I "dont' get it," but no one is ever
quite able to define the "it" I aint' getting.

You may be right: maybe it IS time I "grow up" and stopped trying to help
people and improve things and just Help Myself and Own Things.
>:|
David
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