[Icehouse] 2 player Zendo

Sat Jan 12 19:01:42 EST 2008

The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This encourages
the use of very difficult rules.

Exactly, this is why the master's expected gain should be no greater by
picking a rule she thinks will be guessed in 50-60 turns than in 10-12
turns.

The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns,
and is given one anyway if the master made the rule too hard:
(1 point if not solved at X, 2 if solved at X, 3 at X-1, etc.)

The Master gets two points if it's solved in exactly X turns.

> If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
> is divulged, and the next round begins.

The result:

Make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
Make a rule too hard and still give away points.
Do it just right and you don't lose ground on your "opponent" (you each
get 2 points).

My guess is that the Student can't know the predicted number of turns. Here,
for example, the Student should try to guess up to turn X-1, then do
something random on turn X, then gain a point on turn X+1.

On Jan 12, 2008 9:00 AM, <icehouse-request at lists.looneylabs.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. 2 player Zendo (Guy Srinivasan)
>   2. Re: 2 player Zendo (Jorge Arroyo)
>   3. Re: 2 player Zendo (Dale Newfield)
>   4. Re: 2 player Zendo (Dale Newfield)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:25:22 -0800
> From: "Guy Srinivasan" <srinivgp at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
> To: icehouse at lists.looneylabs.com
> Message-ID:
>        <e464360b0801111425s1012eab0v75f20b97c47ea097 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I know there are several 2 player Zendo variants up at various places, but
> nothing I found meets my requirements. Here are my requirements and a
> first
> draft to meet them:
>
> a) There is a Master and a Student for each rule. Almost certainly the two
> people playing will switch roles for each rule and some kind of currency,
> probably points, will stay with players over multiple rules.
> b) The rules should encourage the Student to correctly guess the rule as
> soon as possible.
> c) The rules should strongly discourage situations in which the Student
> takes many, many examples/guesses to figure out the rule and gets
> frustrated.
> d) The rules should encourage the Master to know beforehand how easy or
> hard
> her rule actually is.
>
> My first draft:
>
> Players alternate being Master and Student, and keep a running total of
> points throughout play. The current Master writes a standard Zendo rule
> and
> an integer, 10+, both hidden. This number is her guess at how many turns
> the
> Student will need to guess the rule, and actually represents a range. If
> the
> chosen number is X, the range is X through X+X/5. So 10-12, 11-13, 12-14,
> 13-15, 14-16, 15-18, 16-19, ... 20-24, etc. Play as in normal Zendo except
> that the Student has as many guessing stones as desired. The Student
> either
> builds a sculpture and asks that it be marked, or guesses a rule that the
> Master must find a counter-example to. Either counts as a turn. If the
> Student takes a number of turns less than specified by the Master's range,
> she gains +3 points. If the Student takes a number of turns within the
> Master's range, the Master gains +10 points. If the Student goes over the
> range, the Master gains +1 point.
>
> This was fun, but it's a little sad that Mondo is missing, and the point
> values and range values can undoubtedly be tweaked. Thoughts?
>
> Guy
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:39:04 +0100
> From: "Jorge Arroyo" <trozo at makasoft.net>
> Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
> To: "Icehouse Discussion List" <icehouse at lists.looneylabs.com>
> Message-ID:
>        <76e9131d0801111739k6ba5d61bvcfd603260ade045b at mail.gmail.com>
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>
> The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
> something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This
> encourages
> the use of very difficult rules. The only solution I see is to create
> cards
> with rules and classify them in difficulty levels. Before the round starts
> the players then agree on a level and choose (or randomly take) a card
> from
> that level...
>
> Otherwise, I like the variant. Playing for points might be fun too...
>
> -Jorge
>
> On Jan 11, 2008 11:25 PM, Guy Srinivasan <srinivgp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know there are several 2 player Zendo variants up at various places,
> but
> > nothing I found meets my requirements. Here are my requirements and a
> first
> > draft to meet them:
> >
> > a) There is a Master and a Student for each rule. Almost certainly the
> two
> > people playing will switch roles for each rule and some kind of
> currency,
> > probably points, will stay with players over multiple rules.
> > b) The rules should encourage the Student to correctly guess the rule as
> > soon as possible.
> > c) The rules should strongly discourage situations in which the Student
> > takes many, many examples/guesses to figure out the rule and gets
> > frustrated.
> > d) The rules should encourage the Master to know beforehand how easy or
> > hard her rule actually is.
> >
> > My first draft:
> >
> > Players alternate being Master and Student, and keep a running total of
> > points throughout play. The current Master writes a standard Zendo rule
> and
> > an integer, 10+, both hidden. This number is her guess at how many turns
> the
> > Student will need to guess the rule, and actually represents a range. If
> the
> > chosen number is X, the range is X through X+X/5. So 10-12, 11-13,
> 12-14,
> > 13-15, 14-16, 15-18, 16-19, ... 20-24, etc. Play as in normal Zendo
> except
> > that the Student has as many guessing stones as desired. The Student
> either
> > builds a sculpture and asks that it be marked, or guesses a rule that
> the
> > Master must find a counter-example to. Either counts as a turn. If the
> > Student takes a number of turns less than specified by the Master's
> range,
> > she gains +3 points. If the Student takes a number of turns within the
> > Master's range, the Master gains +10 points. If the Student goes over
> the
> > range, the Master gains +1 point.
> >
> > This was fun, but it's a little sad that Mondo is missing, and the point
> > values and range values can undoubtedly be tweaked. Thoughts?
> >
> > Guy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Icehouse mailing list
> > Icehouse at lists.looneylabs.com
> > http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/icehouse
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:00:39 -0500
> From: Dale Newfield <Dale at Newfield.org>
> Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
> To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse at lists.looneylabs.com>
> Message-ID: <478873A7.8050905 at Newfield.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Jorge Arroyo wrote:
> > The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
> > something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This
> > encourages the use of very difficult rules.
>
> How about this:
>
> Student picks a number, X.
>
> The master picks a rule that they think will take the student X turns to
> figure out.
>
> The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns.
> (1 point at X, 2 at X-1, etc.)
>
> The Master gets a point if it's solved in exactly X turns.
>
> If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
> is divulged, and the next round begins.
>
> The result:  make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
> make a rule too hard and get nowhere.  Do it just right and get a bonus!
>
> (You can't make the bonus more than 1, because then the scoring would
> motivate the student not to guess correctly at exactly X, as the master
> gains more points than the student when that happens.)
>
> -Dale
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:13:27 -0500
> From: Dale Newfield <Dale at Newfield.org>
> Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
> To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse at lists.looneylabs.com>
> Message-ID: <478876A7.8050504 at Newfield.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dale Newfield wrote:
> > How about this:
>
> I think the variation below prevents starvation, as every round results
> in at least one point being awarded.
>
> > Student picks a number, X.
> >
> > The master picks a rule that they think will take the student X turns to
> > figure out.
>
> The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns,
> and is given one anyway if the master made the rule too hard:
> (1 point if not solved at X, 2 if solved at X, 3 at X-1, etc.)
>
> The Master gets two points if it's solved in exactly X turns.
>
> > If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
> > is divulged, and the next round begins.
>
> The result:
>
> Make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
> Make a rule too hard and still give away points.
> Do it just right and you don't lose ground on your "opponent" (you each
> get 2 points).
>
> -Dale
>
>
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> End of Icehouse Digest, Vol 32, Issue 10
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